Bester wrote:That is the other side of it; does a conceived fetus count as a sentient being so that the termination would count as murder. That is a side I can see to a certain point, though I don't necessarily agree with it. Up to a certain extent (which I personally consider mid-to-late pregnancy), I think that it is a biological process that has the potential to become a sentient child.
It can be, and IS argued that sentience is NOT a factor. Animal Rights activist would certainly make that argument, and they have, when going after people that have collected eggs of endangered species. Those people had said, "well I didn't kill any of that endangered species, I just took some eggs, which aren't said species". To which the Activists would argue, "Well, they're GOING to be..!" I'm not saying that humans are an endangered species, but the substance of the argument is the same. The moment of conception, is the ONLY point at which autonomous development begins of a distinguishable life form. It is true the mother is a 'life-support' apparatus of sorts (looking at things clinically), but the unborn child is NOT an extension of the woman's own biology, it is an autonomous organism that is dependent in its early stages. The same is true of EVERY unborn life-form, including those that develop in egg shells. If a chicken or turtle didn't do the appropriate things to ensure the survival of their offspring, after laying their eggs, they could arguably be said to have effectively 'aborted' them. I admit, that almost sounds ridiculous, but it IS true.
So is the sperm, and so is the egg. In my mind a similar argument that you could be similarly considered would be that not having unprotected sex would result in the death of a child on the basis that the sperm was never given opportunity to fertilize the egg; heck, from my understanding of the Catholic viewpoint (which admittedly might be mistaken, as I am not that familiar with Catholicism) that is their argument against birth control. So where do you step off of that slippery slope? In my opinion, the government has no business getting on the slippery slope; that is a moral/religious decision between the potential mother and whatever/whoever she believes in. Again, when in doubt, the government should never be involved.
I'm not Catholic, so I won't make their arguments for them. However, it has always been MY understanding that LIFE begins at conception and at NO other time. Sperm and eggs, of their own individual accord, do NOT have the capacity to develop into anything other than what they are. Alone they are only HALF of the equation necessary to perpetuate life, and therefore can't be considered 'alive' on their own. They will not grow, develop, or do anything that would meet the generally understood conditions for life. A fertilized Embryo DOES, and it does so instantly at conception. My understanding of Catholic objections to birth control is that it stems primarily from methods which kill an already fertilized egg, and also (in part) the whole sex outside of marriage thing. There are contraceptive methods that can get around the first part of that objection. As to the second part, that is none of the Catholic church's business.
As to personal responsibility, I addressed that in my previous post. Given the disgraceful state of education on the subject (which is by a large part driven by the more extreme of the anti-abortion group), I think this is hypocritical. Also, again, the support mechanisms of society for these people affected needs to be looked at and drastically improved. I will say that I don't hold much sympathy for grown adults that fall into these traps, but I don't think they make up a significant portion of the problem.
I don't think there is ANYONE of potentially child bearing age that hasn't heard of contraceptives from SOMEWHERE. Even if someone hasn't gone to some special class, the topic is discussed so much in media programming, that just about everyone has SOME idea about them. People have generally heard of contraceptives, even if it is only amidst whispered giggles of immature reference, ridiculous as that may be.
It is true that peer and societal pressures can cause people (young and old) to make poor choices, but that isn't a very good excuse in and of itself. Someone pressured to steal a car, or do drugs, (or whatever) all must face the consequences of their choices. Causing the death of someone (even unborn), ought not to be any different. Using abortion as a waiver from consequence, without any other penalties applied, simply perpetuates irresponsible behavior. I ABSOLUTELY agree, that males get off TOO easily on this. The consequences shouldn't belong to the woman alone. It takes TWO to bring about the consequence, so TWO should be held accountable for their actions. Is this not the same reason that dead-beat dads are considered so abominable? Because they don't take responsibility?
I'm not saying that such irresponsible people should go to jail or something, but there DOES need to some kind of mechanism in place that impresses upon them the gravity of their actions. To be perfectly honest, I think that the study of action and consequence should be a REQUIRED ongoing course in schools (from Elementary to High School), that keeps a consistent "in your face" presentations about the importance of personal responsibility, civic duty, and risk analysis in life choices. I think THAT would probably help with MANY of the ills that plague society, and NOT just abortions. Young people are consistently make poor choices that are not in their best interests due to peer and societal pressures, to do and act in ways that aren't beneficial to themselves or society as a whole.
I recognize that economic and social factors do play a part in the ability of many people to succeed and make wise choices, but it has been proven time and again, that people CAN rise above those things. It isn't easy, but it can be done, and there are those that do it all the time. The problem is that too many don't believe they can, and so allow themselves to be pulled into situations that they KNOW isn't a good idea. Part of the problem is that sometimes people are of the notion that things can't get any worse, when in fact, they can.
For me, abortion is a SYMPTOM of societal problems, not the disease. If people were educated about making proper choices (NOT about contraception per se), then I think it would help. The problem isn't not knowing about choices, the problem is not understanding the need to make GOOD choices, and why. Too many people (the young particularly) live like there ARE no consequences, and think that life is just one big party. Yeah, I suppose I'm being the stick in the mud, but I believe people act irresponsibly because they were irresponsibly raised.
As to the Planned Parenthood selective abortion thing
Putting aside the various arguments over Planned Parenthood, I'll just say that there is little doubt that they push abortion as a casual option, and they get a considerable amount of there revenue from abortions. The percentage of the funding they get from abortions varies depending on who you ask, but it is well over a $150 Million dollars per year. They are hardly an unbiased faction on the issue. In addition, they have openly stated that they will support abortions with little to no discrimination of the circumstances.
There is, amongst the most vocal of the First Amendment defenders a saying that the answer to evil speech isn't censorship, it is more speech. That is a way to say that even though it is intuitive to want to silence speech you consider wrong or evil, it is both more effective and more moral to counter it with more speech. Speech that is censored becomes martyred, and develops supporters, while speech that is ridiculed as idiotic tends to die away on its own with a lot less ongoing ramifications. That argument has certain similarities with the subject of abortion IMHO. The way to minimize abortion isn't to try and eliminate it or outlaw it, the way is eliminate the need for it. No one wakes up and thinks "I want to have an abortion today," or "I want to perform an abortion today," or "I want to convince someone to have an abortion today." All of those things happen, regretfully for the person involved, as what they see is the best thing to do in the situation. Even the most vociferous pro-choice advocates don't want more abortions to happen; they just want the option available for the darkest circumstances where it is (as they see it) needed. From my understanding Planned Parenthood (despite the vilification they receive by the right) spends the vast majority of their efforts on counseling and avoidance of abortions; as an organization, my understanding is that they look at it as a necessary evil that someone needs to be willing to do. As Fel best puts it, "safe, legal, and rare." That is a four word summary that I think everyone pro-choice can agree with.
I think my earlier point about the need for education about Personal Responsibility, Civic Duty, and Risk Analysis of Life Choices from grade school to high school, covers this generally. I think education on contraception is less of an issue than the other I mentioned, in terms of effective life skills. To be clear, there ARE factions that DO think that abortions are safer and preferable to childbirth. That is not at all a proven idea, and in fact there is plenty of data that points to the precise contrary.
However, I DO think, that most reasonable people DO agree with the idea of "safe, legal, and rare" where abortion is concerned...
I sympathize about your almost-abortion, but without knowing the situation she was in I really can't speak to that. Obviously, she decided against that, and that is a good thing. I, and just about everyone else that believes in pro-choice, hopes that in virtually all cases the mothers will decide not to abort. The more we can properly educate and support and have not needing to go that route, the healthier our society will be, IMHO.
My own 'almost-abortion' WAS in fact argued as a matter of convenience. My mother didn't think it was a good enough reason, and resisted those trying to persuade her. Lucky me...
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